Five Questions with Brigid Schulte

November 21, 2024
Balancing all of your priorities without feeling overworked may seem impossible in today’s hustle culture. We sat down with Brigid Schulte, director of the Better Life Lab and New York Times bestselling author, to discuss the concept of “overwork” and how we can better manage our time and productivity.

1. We all have days where we feel like we worked all day but accomplished nothing. What is taking up all of our time?

Researchers have found that desk workers in an office setting tend to be interrupted about every three minutes. And after that interruption, it can take, on average, 23 minutes and 15 seconds to get back to where we were.

Then, there are the meetings. One survey found that executives spend, on average, 25 hours a week in meetings – half of which could disappear without any negative impact.

Those lower down the corporate ladder spend about 10 hours a week in meetings and say 43% are a waste of time. But they go because they have to, fear they’ll miss out, or want to show their managers how busy and committed they are. This means huge swaths of the workweek might be a huge waste of time and money.

2. Those numbers are scary! Is there a way to approach how we break up our work to better prioritize and be more productive?

I think of work in three ways:

  • The “real” work: The tasks and outcomes that create value for the organization and give employees a sense of meaning and pride
  • The “work around the work”: All the emails, logistics, and meetings that should support the “real” work, but often become the work itself, that can consume entire days
  • The “performance of work”: Giving the appearance of super-productive busyness when you’re actually wrapped up in low-value tasks or focusing on email rather than making progress on a big project

Authors Anne Helen Petersen and Charlie Warzel call this third phenomenon “live action role-playing the job.” In “overwork” work cultures, those who appear to perform well are often the ones who are rewarded.

A big part of the problem is we’re still measuring and rewarding knowledge work with outdated factory metrics focused on “inputs” like presence and hours on the job, rather than the more meaningful “outputs” like performance, impact, and value.

So, we’re rewarding the wrong things – showing up at meetings, answering late-night emails, rushing around the office, and “looking productive” – rather than being productive and innovative. That makes work less effective and steals time from our lives outside of work.

It's also a big reason why workers with care responsibilities, who are still primarily women, often can’t seem to get ahead in so many workplaces that value inputs rather than outputs. They simply can’t put in the same number of hours and presence. Even though these are wrong-headed metrics!

When we’re busy and have that high-octane, panicked feeling that time is scarce, our attention and ability to focus narrow. In that heightened state of time scarcity and busyness, we can only concentrate on the most immediate – and often most low-value – tasks in front of us.

3. You mentioned “busyness,” and busyness culture seems to be pervasive. How do we drive change in company culture to help improve gender equality and work-life balance?

Changing an entrenched work culture is difficult. I had a front-row seat to a project that tried. In 2018, the behavioral design firm ideas42 kicked off a project to better understand what drives people to overwork and to test interventions that would improve individual work-life conflict and well-being.

For an ideal work-life balance workplace, designers imagined leaders who were open about taking lunch breaks, working flexibly, going on vacation, and sharing more about their lives, families, and care responsibilities outside of work. They then designed, implemented, and tested practical interventions focused on four key pain points:

  • Long hours
  • Endless and often pointless meetings
  • The guilt people felt taking vacations
  • Email

One intervention asked workers to schedule big calendar blocks for their most important uninterrupted work, rather than expecting it to just happen at some point during the workweek. The designers encouraged workers to create open space in their calendars every week so that they had a built-in cushion in case they had underestimated the time a project would really take, or in case an unanticipated emergency cropped up. Intentional scheduling that you share with co-workers makes it much more apparent that calling a meeting involves a trade-off.

The intervention also called for organizations to design and enforce better “meeting hygiene.” Many meetings are a waste of productive time. In the intervention, an agenda would be circulated before every meeting listing clear goals to keep things short and focused. Those calling the meeting were encouraged to be judicious about who needed to be included.

People were trained to think about when a meeting was really required – to debate, discuss, or decide issues – and when updates could be more effectively made asynchronously through other means – for example, in project management software like Notion or Asana, in email or Slack messages, or in shared Google Docs.

To encourage time for rest and vacation, some organizations experimented with nudging workers to put their summer breaks on their calendars in the first quarter, when the summer months were likely to be clear. Planning early would force teams to map out how to meet deadlines and delegate tasks so people would not feel compelled to work on vacation.

My colleagues helped design vacation prep checklists and encouraged organizations to experiment with allocating two vacation “transition days” on each end of the vacation, with the only expectation being that they use the time to disconnect and reconnect with work.

One organization adopted a “vacation roulette” intervention. The HR team found every person who hadn’t used their vacation days over a 90-day period and sent them a note reminding them of their vacation balance and copying their manager.

Another organization experimented with closing down between Christmas and New Year’s Day. Research in Sweden found that when everyone takes vacation at the same time, there’s less guilt, a big boost to mental health, and the entire organization benefits from “collective restoration.”

My ideas42 colleagues also designed a tool to enable workers to pause their email inboxes. They sent reminders to people at the end of each workday asking whether they had paused their inboxes and amplified the effort with a campaign to affirm people’s identities outside of work.

4. Which interventions improved destructive work culture? Which didn’t?

Vacation-taking interventions in particular led to encouraging results. Interventions to ease the pain of email were, perhaps unsurprisingly, among the least successful.

The ones that didn’t work were those aimed at individuals taking individual action to improve their personal work-life balance. Those that were more successful involved a change to the entire system.

Leaders at many of the organizations had the best of intentions. They expressed a desire for better work- life balance for everyone. But they, too, were caught up in the prevailing busyness culture. Many knew they weren’t walking the talk, yet they appeared powerless to change themselves or their busyness cultures.

5. What advice would you give your younger self?

I’d tell my younger self: You don’t need to worry so much. Maybe things won’t turn out like you thought they would, but so much of life is what you make with what you have, where you are. And maybe your imagination was a little out of focus to begin with.

I’d tell her to trust more and that failure is something to be learned from.

I would tell her to be more curious than afraid. And to trust her instincts more.

I’d tell her to take some time to be quiet, to breathe, to notice, and to make sure the dreams she’s chasing are really hers.

I’d tell her to seek help and learn from mentors, rather than thinking she’s not worthy of it, and, in turn, to help and mentor others.

And, most importantly, to enjoy the journey along the way. Don’t wait. Don’t get trapped in if-then thinking – "If I do this,” or “Once this happens,” then I can, or then I get to do something fun. Leisure, rest, time to love and to enjoy life are part of what makes for a rich and wholehearted life. They don’t have to be earned.

I’d tell her to do meaningful work, love fully and well, take time to play, and expand the frame. Maybe you won’t get it right every day. Or every week. But keep at it. Life is practice. Maybe the house will be a mess, but an afternoon blowing bubbles with your three-year-old is priceless. Life is lived in the extraordinary, awful, and ordinary moments right now. Embrace it all.

Contact Us

Up Next
Up Next

Women & Wealth Magazine Summer Issue 2024

In the summer issue of Women & Wealth Magazine, we highlight notable women in investing throughout the decades – in particular, BBH Partner Suzanne Brenner. We also cover how to talk with your children about money, look at the changing landscape of family wealth advising, and talk about Olympic athletes with Flame Bearers Founder Jamie Mittelman.

Brown Brothers Harriman & Co. (“BBH”) may be used to reference the company as a whole and/or its various subsidiaries generally.  This material and any products or services may be issued or provided in multiple jurisdictions by duly authorized and regulated subsidiaries.  This material is for general information and reference purposes only and does not constitute legal, tax or investment advice and is not intended as an offer to sell, or a solicitation to buy securities, services or investment products.  Any reference to tax matters is not intended to be used, and may not be used, for purposes of avoiding penalties under the U.S. Internal Revenue Code, or other applicable tax regimes, or for promotion, marketing or recommendation to third parties. All information has been obtained from sources believed to be reliable, but accuracy is not guaranteed, and reliance should not be placed on the information presented.  This material may not be reproduced, copied or transmitted, or any of the content disclosed to third parties, without the permission of BBH.  All trademarks and service marks included are the property of BBH or their respective owners. © Brown Brothers Harriman & Co. 2024. All rights reserved. PB-07995-2024-11-13

As of June 15, 2022 Internet Explorer 11 is not supported by BBH.com.

Important Information for Non-U.S. Residents

You are required to read the following important information, which, in conjunction with the Terms and Conditions, governs your use of this website. Your use of this website and its contents constitute your acceptance of this information and those Terms and Conditions. If you do not agree with this information and the Terms and Conditions, you should immediately cease use of this website. The contents of this website have not been prepared for the benefit of investors outside of the United States. This website is not intended as a solicitation of the purchase or sale of any security or other financial instrument or any investment management services for any investor who resides in a jurisdiction other than the United States1. As a general matter, Brown Brothers Harriman & Co. and its subsidiaries (“BBH”) is not licensed or registered to solicit prospective investors and offer investment advisory services in jurisdictions outside of the United States. The information on this website is not intended to be distributed to, directed at or used by any person or entity in any jurisdiction or country where such distribution or use would be contrary to law or regulation. Persons in respect of whom such prohibitions apply must not access the website.  Under certain circumstances, BBH may provide services to investors located outside of the United States in accordance with applicable law. The conditions under which such services may be provided will be analyzed on a case-by-case basis by BBH. BBH will only accept investors from such jurisdictions or countries where it has made a determination that such an arrangement or relationship is permissible under the laws of that jurisdiction or country. The existence of this website is not intended to be a substitute for the type of analysis described above and is not intended as a solicitation of or recommendation to any prospective investor, including those located outside of the United States. Certain BBH products or services may not be available in certain jurisdictions. By choosing to access this website from any location other than the United States, you accept full responsibility for compliance with all local laws. The website contains content that has been obtained from sources that BBH believes to be reliable as of the date presented; however, BBH cannot guarantee the accuracy of such content, assure its completeness, or warrant that such information will not be changed. The content contained herein is current as of the date of issuance and is subject to change without notice. The website’s content does not constitute investment advice and should not be used as the basis for any investment decision. There is no guarantee that any investment objectives, expectations, targets described in this website or the  performance or profitability of any investment will be achieved. You understand that investing in securities and other financial instruments involves risks that may affect the value of the securities and may result in losses, including the potential loss of the principal invested, and you assume and are able to bear all such risks.  In no event shall BBH or any other affiliated party be liable for any direct, incidental, special, consequential, indirect, lost profits, loss of business or data, or punitive damages arising out of your use of this website. By clicking accept, you confirm that you accept  to the above Important Information along with Terms and Conditions.

 
1BBH sponsors UCITS Funds registered in Luxembourg, in certain jurisdictions. For information on those funds, please see bbhluxembourgfunds.com



captcha image

Type in the word seen on the picture

I am a current investor in another jurisdiction